Palestine Remembered:
Dear Hersh
Your web-site is hated by Wikipedia and every effort made to diminish
its importance, but your community is apparently of significant
interest, see the article here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satmar_%28Hasidic_dynasty%29#Satmar_succession_feud
Please note, I am prepared (even delighted) to help you with getting
JAZ properly recognised, but I don't wish to involve myself over the
Satmar entry/ies.
I am defending you vigorously at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:PalestineRemembered#Blocked -
it's not easy to follow, but I trust I'm doing you credit!
Best Regards, PRR
Dear Hersh - please respond to this address.
The following is probably most of the article that used to exist on
JAZ. The "==" signs and the "[[xx]]" signs do different things in
Wikipedia, but it doesn't take long to get the hang of it. You can use
a sandbox to check how things will look, and even edit without
registering if you don't want to do so. However, I would suggest you
not edit your own entry, this is naturally frowned upon!
Someone (probably knowing nothing of this version of the article) has
started a new article on you, but it's currently no more than a "stub"
(Google should find it). The person starting the new article has
probably lost interest by now and in any case doesn't realise the
extreme amount of opposition they will get making an article on you
stick. Basically, you're hated (much like me). You're described as
extreme, a hate-site and fringe. But the only evidence is what I've
presented on TalkPages, and it paints you as solid citizens, fully
deserving of the coveted title of RS (reliable source).
I would like us to work together, because I'm sure I can do a lot to
help you. There are modern day things concerning Israel and the
pogroms it commits that I'd really like to publish. Is the JAZ
suitable for that?
***
I see what you mean about the Wikipedia editors refusing to give our site
credibility. Thanks for sticking up for us.
The article below is on Jewish anti-Zionism in general and I think it still exists
in wikipedia. It's not about our organization in particular.
The wikipedia editors seem to be only against using us as a RS for other articles
but they have no problem with us having our own article, just as Neturei Karta has
their own article.
Hersh
I think the Zionists who are threatening to permanently block me from
the site if I dare to use the information on your site are, in the
regular meaning of the word, antisemitic. They seek to incite hatred
of Jews by linking you to the crimes of Israel. It has lots of
advantages - except to you, who will and do have to live with the
consequences.
But I can only do so much by hinting that this is the problem, and
even working together, we couldn't possibly break the Zionist
strangle-hold, since Wikipedia needs vast sums of money to operate,
and Israel presumably pays for lots of it.
But we could embarrass them and open the door for anti-Zionism a bit
... what do you think? Who recorded this Rabbi Baruch Kaplan
interview, do you still have the recording? It would be tragic indeed
if he only started talking about his life in Hebron late in life - are
you sure he didn't write anything down?
Wikipedia could be a huge boost to you, your community and web-site.
But it needs careful thought. It needs people like you to come to my
defence and make people like Avi and "Ryan Postlethwaite" (not his
real name) feel uncomfortable. But I don't know the best way to do it!
I'm blocked until 9.30 this evening, and it will be days before they
lift the block on my IP, so I can't be any help for the moment. What
they want me to do is to cheat and open another account, then they'd
be able to hound me for ever. I've refused ever to do this.
Can you tell me what your web-site is interested in hosting?
Are you convinced (as I am) that Israel is on the skids? If so, is it
any part of your work to try and document messages like this one from
Avraham Burg, http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/868215.htm "A Jewish
state is explosive. It's dynamite." In an interview in Haaretz Weekend
Magazine, he said that he is in favor of abrogating the Law of Return
and calls on everyone who can to obtain a foreign passport.
I have expanded the article about our organization to read:
Jews Against Zionism is a religious-political movement and non-profit organization. It argues by the use of quotes from the Torah, and the history of Zionism, that the ideology of Zionism is in total opposition to the teachings of traditional Judaism.
The organization was founded in 1999 in Brooklyn, New York by several members of the Satmar Chassidic sect.
http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/endorsements/index.cfm
The organization is also known within the Jewish community by the name Natruna. Natruna is an Aramaic word meaning "waiting" and is intended as a reference to a Midrashic commentary, Pesikta Derav Kahana, on Exodus 12:6, which states that the Jewish people will be redeemed from their final exile in the merit of their waiting patiently for the redemption.
History
The idea of establishing a public relations office to spread the views of anti-Zionist Jewry and to counter Zionist propaganda originated with Rabbi Yoel Teitelbaum, the Satmar Rebbe (1887-1979). On February 20, 1955, Rabbi Teitelbaum called a gathering of activists from 37 different Jewish groups in the Viener Synagogue in Williamsburg, at which he established an organization called Ichud Olami Lemaan Chizuk Hadas the World Federation for the Furtherance of Torah. (Natruna and Its Activities, p. 21.)
On the stationery of the organization, the following were listed as members of the Rabbinic Committee: Rabbi Avraham Shlomo Katz, Rabbi Dovid Jungreis, Rabbi Yissachar Dov Rothenberg, Rabbi Mordechai Savitzky, Rabbi Shlomo Zalman Friedman, and Rabbi Shimon Yisroel Posen.[[ http://www.natrina.org/yiddish/brochure.pdf] >True Torah Jews] brochure. Hebrew.
The organization rented a Manhattan office at 246 Fifth Avenue, as well as a Brooklyn office at 134 Broadway.
On June 27, 1957, Rabbi Teitelbaum called a second gathering in his house, at which he exhorted his students to make sure the World Federation continued to exist and publicize the views of anti-Zionist Jewry. He recognized that many official Jewish organizations might not want to join the Federation; nevertheless, he said, there were surely individuals in every group and community who would want to join. He asked his activists to recruit 1000 members from all communities, each member paying $10 annually. (ibid. p. 26)
As late as 1967, the World Federation still existed and was mentioned by Rabbi Teitelbaum in a speech in connection with the battle over forced autopsies in the State of Israel. (ibid. p. 28) However, no mention of it was made for the next 34 years, although the Satmar community continued to hold periodic demonstrations against Zionism. In 2001 the organization was re-established under the name True Torah Jews Against Zionism. The organization's website was launched in 2002 in response to a widespread demand from the public for more information about the subject of religious Jewish opposition to Zionism.(p. 35)
http://www.natrina.org/yiddish/brochure.pdf
Activities:
Over the past seven years, Jews Against Zionism has placed several advertisements in the Washington Post and the Washington Times, as well as on the radio.
On its website, Jews Against Zionism features coverage of current events with their comments, historical information about Zionism and Judaism, quotations from famous rabbis, an online bookstore, weekly commentary on the Torah, and an archive of questions asked by visitors and the answers they were given.
The question and answer archive gives a unique picture of the major arguments of the Zionists and anti-Zionists, as the visitors and the staff writers of the site debate the issues, sometimes heatedly.
http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/about/response.cfm
Some of the writers for the website are: Hersh Lowenthal, Reuven Waxman, Leizer Fishberg, and Yirmiyahu Cohen. The website features endorsements from several rabbis from various circles, including Satmar, Brisk, Sephardic and Lithuanian.
Jews Against Zionism has published two books, Efes Biltecha Goaleinu in Hebrew and In the Footsteps of the Flock in English.
http://www.natrina.org/articles/efesbiltecha.pdf
http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/bookstore/productDetails.cfm?merchID=24 - 11k -
Jews Against Zionism is neutral in the Satmar succession dispute, and they are endorsed by prominent rabbis from both Rabbi Aaron and Rabbi Zalman Leib Teitelbaum's factions of the community.
http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/endorsements/index.cfm
The largest recent outpouring of support for Jews Against Zionism came on December 3, 2007 when over 1500 people attended an inspirational banquet in Brooklyn to benefit the organization.
http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/news/currentarticle.cfm?id=90
The event was covered by the Satmar community's two major Yiddish language newspapers, Der Yid
http://www.natrina.org/yiddish/deryid%20kinus.htm
and Der Blatt http://www.natrina.org/yiddish/derblatt%20kinus.htm
I should have warned you, do not edit your own article, you're bound
to get caught! And it will look very bad on you!
And I should warn you now, if we're not very careful, the bullies will
link you and I together, and we'll both be in serious trouble!
And Avraham, the bully who has told me that he'll block me for ever
if I dare link to you again has nominated your article for deletion!
Under the circumstances, it's barely worth fighting - your web-site is
very well known, very valuable, but, yet again, Wikipedia is going to
get rid of it.
The charges against you are that you're extreme, you're "fringe"
you're self-published (ie no fact-checking going on) and you're
anonymous. Neturei Karta have an address somewhere (Jerusalem?), which
partly explains why they're in slightly better favour than you are.
But also, of course, their web-site is nothing like as effective in
damaging the case for Israel as yours is. Believe me, your web-site
really is well known and well respected.
I don't believe that the Zionists are going to stop their nonsense
over JAZ in Wikipedia until they're forced to do so, probably by
publicity. I think what you need is a newspaper story that accuses
them of being bullies. And ... trying to incite hatred of Jews ... I
don't think there's much question that that is what they're trying to
do.
Hersh,
The system is sending people to look at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Natsmith - which
tells them that Natsmith has only ever made 2 edits.
The next thing is that you will be accused of being a sock-puppet for
an existing user (probably somebody banned).
I'm puzzling over the deletion debate.
But in the meantime, another of your members (sadly not registered!
unlike YidisherYid) wrote this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions&target=67.139.62.77
I'm a Satmar member who can attest to the fact that this organization
takes its philosophy from the teachings of the Satmar rabbi Joel
Tietelbaum, and its financial support from his today's over 120,000
(according to latest news reports) followers.
I now recall a morning in the summer of 2005 as I entered the main
synagogue in Kiryas Joel, a Satmar village in upstate New York with
15,000 residents. I met a huge poster stating: Support True Torah
Jews. I followed a call from Rabbi Aaron Teitelbaum, chief rabbi of
Kiryas Joel, to support this organization. I took out my wallet and
found my last twenty dollars. I made my donation and walked away with
an empty wallet.
It's possible that the three above mentioned rabbis serve as an
editorial board, but they are certainly not "the only" rabbis behind
True Torah Jews.
One should not expect as many Satmar internet users to notice this
discussion as Zionist do, since Satmar educates its members to refrain
from internet as much as possible. This vote will probably be decided
by two types of voters; the ones who are truly unaware of, and the
others who are truly biased against True Torah Jews.
In the recent 6 months, I've come to rely on Wikipedia as my
encyclopedia. It will be devastating to learn that I was only reading
the side of the story allowed by interest groups. I will be shocked to
see an article deleted because some people, who can't tolerate
criticism against the Zionist cause, are better positioned on
Wikipedia. Finally, it will also be informative to John Mearsheimer
and Stephen Walt that the list of Israeli targets for censorship now
includes Widipedia, with quite some success!
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